Boris Johnson on the Burka

Post Reply
Matt
Posts: 858
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:50 pm

Boris Johnson on the Burka

Post by Matt » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:54 pm

Boris Johnson, FFS* has weighed in on the thorny issue of lecturing women on what they wear. Suggesting that women wearing the burka look like letter boxes or bank robbers was of course simply harmless banter. He will have had no more intention of fuelling the existing anti Muslim sentiment amongst Tommy Robinson's hapless hoards than he did of keeping the media spotlight fixed upon Boris Johnson, FFS*
Certainly the timing of his refusal to apologise as demanded thus keeping the story active for a third day will have been a coincidence rather than a cynically calculated PR move.



*Former Foreign Secretary

User avatar
chaggle
Posts: 2293
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:01 am

Re: Boris Johnson on the Burka

Post by chaggle » Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:01 am

Matt wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:54 pm
Boris Johnson, FFS* has weighed in on the thorny issue of lecturing women on what they wear. Suggesting that women wearing the burka look like letter boxes or bank robbers was of course simply harmless banter. He will have had no more intention of fuelling the existing anti Muslim sentiment amongst Tommy Robinson's hapless hoards than he did of keeping the media spotlight fixed upon Boris Johnson, FFS*
Certainly the timing of his refusal to apologise as demanded thus keeping the story active for a third day will have been a coincidence rather than a cynically calculated PR move.



*Former Foreign Secretary
Needs one of these...

Image

... or someone will think you're serious.

(It's a SarcMarkTM and used to indicate sarcasm where there might be some doubt. I used google image search to try to find a smaller one and oddly it suggested that it was a picture of Henry Purcell :con )

I can't work Boris out. Is comes over as a stupid, blundering buffoon but there must be more to him than that.

Anyway as you say it is a thorny issue. I assume there are legal rules on what women should wear on grounds of decency but the burka/niqab doesn't fall into that category. There's also the question of security under some circumstances (banks, shops, schools and so on) - I suppose that could be stretched to all public places. But public outrage isn't a factor - if it were I would be banning lots of things I see women wear - but that is a problem for the observer not the wearer. There is also a perception that women are somehow coerced against their will into these garments - that might be true in some circumstances but by no means all - women have been saying that they are happy and comfortable to wear them

There is a sensible debate to be had but Boris has spoiled it either by crass stupidity or for his own ends.
Don't blame me - I voted remain :con

User avatar
bindeweede
Site Admin
Posts: 3335
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:45 pm
Location: Hertfordshire, UK

Re: Boris Johnson on the Burka

Post by bindeweede » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:56 pm

comes over as a stupid, blundering buffoon but there must be more to him than that.
In my opinion, that's just a small part of the act. Everything Johnson says or does is calculated to promote his personal ambitions to become Tory leader and PM.

He is sufficiently unscrupulous, devious and mendacious to make a reasonably successful attempt.

Tony.Williams
Posts: 760
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:05 am
Location: Still somewhere in England
Contact:

Re: Boris Johnson on the Burka

Post by Tony.Williams » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:20 pm

Not seen that SarcMark before - it's rather abstract, and doesn't suggest any particular meaning to me.

I think that if anyone wants to be PM so badly that they appear to see everything through the prism of that ambition, that should be regarded as an indication of complete unsuitability to do the job, and lead to disqualification. I would have a little more sympathy if the person had a clear and practical vision for improving the country and want to become PM in order to implement that, but I've not heard of any reason Bojo the Clown wants the job, except for its own sake and the prestige that goes with it.

IMO covering the face (with anything - balaclavas etc) is not only a security issue in certain circumstances, it is objectionable at all times when dealing with other people. We don't talk about the importance of "face-to-face" meetings for nothing - in our culture, the ability to read micro-expressions as well as body language is a fundamental part of human interaction; it can actually be more important than the words that are said. To talk to someone while keeping your face covered is therefore bloody rude, if nothing else, and I wouldn't wish to converse with anyone who did that.

User avatar
Ketchup
Posts: 673
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 10:15 pm
Location: Around the bend
Contact:

Re: Boris Johnson on the Burka

Post by Ketchup » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:11 am

Whatever his reasons for saying what he did, the words are true! - the Batman face coverages DO look like letterboxes, as many would agree (including some of the wearers themselves) - and as far as an apology is concerned, good for him for refusing; it really is not warranted.
The whole thing is so petty, it's laughable.
(rant over)
~ Today is the Tomorrow you worried about Yesterday ~

User avatar
chaggle
Posts: 2293
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:01 am

Re: Boris Johnson on the Burka

Post by chaggle » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:01 pm

If at work I were to disrespect women because of what they were wearing I would expect to be in trouble.
Don't blame me - I voted remain :con

Tony.Williams
Posts: 760
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:05 am
Location: Still somewhere in England
Contact:

Re: Boris Johnson on the Burka

Post by Tony.Williams » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:34 pm

chaggle wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:01 pm
If at work I were to disrespect women because of what they were wearing I would expect to be in trouble.
Not a very likely situation considering that an insignificant percentage of people actually wear face coverings in the UK, and I suspect that most of those don't have a job. However, if I had to work with people who covered their faces, I would communicate with them as required by the job or common politeness, but nothing more. And I would naturally remain expressionless while doing so... :|

User avatar
chaggle
Posts: 2293
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:01 am

Re: Boris Johnson on the Burka

Post by chaggle » Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:42 pm

Tony.Williams wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:34 pm
chaggle wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:01 pm
If at work I were to disrespect women because of what they were wearing I would expect to be in trouble.
Not a very likely situation considering that an insignificant percentage of people actually wear face coverings in the UK, and I suspect that most of those don't have a job. However, if I had to work with people who covered their faces, I would communicate with them as required by the job or common politeness, but nothing more. And I would naturally remain expressionless while doing so... :|
Might not be a facecovering - might be a short skirt or a low cut top. Whatever, I would expect to be in trouble if I verbally disrespected them.
Don't blame me - I voted remain :con

User avatar
Ketchup
Posts: 673
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 10:15 pm
Location: Around the bend
Contact:

Re: Boris Johnson on the Burka

Post by Ketchup » Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:32 am

chaggle wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:01 am
(It's a SarcMarkTM and used to indicate sarcasm where there might be some doubt. I used google image search to try to find a smaller one and oddly it suggested that it was a picture of Henry Purcell :con )
Your example resized: (via http://www.picresize.com/ )

Image
~ Today is the Tomorrow you worried about Yesterday ~

Tony.Williams
Posts: 760
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:05 am
Location: Still somewhere in England
Contact:

Re: Boris Johnson on the Burka

Post by Tony.Williams » Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:25 pm

chaggle wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:42 pm
Tony.Williams wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:34 pm
chaggle wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:01 pm
If at work I were to disrespect women because of what they were wearing I would expect to be in trouble.
Not a very likely situation considering that an insignificant percentage of people actually wear face coverings in the UK, and I suspect that most of those don't have a job. However, if I had to work with people who covered their faces, I would communicate with them as required by the job or common politeness, but nothing more. And I would naturally remain expressionless while doing so... :|
Might not be a facecovering - might be a short skirt or a low cut top. Whatever, I would expect to be in trouble if I verbally disrespected them.
Hmm - how about if a young man turned up in a balaclava - the sort with just three holes for the eyes and mouth? Basically equivalent to the burka, so if you allow one....

Tony.Williams
Posts: 760
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:05 am
Location: Still somewhere in England
Contact:

Re: Boris Johnson on the Burka

Post by Tony.Williams » Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:27 pm

bindeweede wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:56 pm
comes over as a stupid, blundering buffoon but there must be more to him than that.
In my opinion, that's just a small part of the act. Everything Johnson says or does is calculated to promote his personal ambitions to become Tory leader and PM.

He is sufficiently unscrupulous, devious and mendacious to make a reasonably successful attempt.
It occurred to me that given his reported obsession about being a latter-day Churchill, another name for BoJo the Clown might be Winnie the Poo... :gmc

User avatar
chaggle
Posts: 2293
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:01 am

Re: Boris Johnson on the Burka

Post by chaggle » Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:15 am

Tony.Williams wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:25 pm
chaggle wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:42 pm
Tony.Williams wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:34 pm
chaggle wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:01 pm
If at work I were to disrespect women because of what they were wearing I would expect to be in trouble.
Not a very likely situation considering that an insignificant percentage of people actually wear face coverings in the UK, and I suspect that most of those don't have a job. However, if I had to work with people who covered their faces, I would communicate with them as required by the job or common politeness, but nothing more. And I would naturally remain expressionless while doing so... :|
Might not be a facecovering - might be a short skirt or a low cut top. Whatever, I would expect to be in trouble if I verbally disrespected them.
Hmm - how about if a young man turned up in a balaclava - the sort with just three holes for the eyes and mouth? Basically equivalent to the burka, so if you allow one....
Banning it is a different question. In fact Boris specifically said that he wasn't for banning it. What he was doing was taking the piss - commenting in a derogatory way about a style of dress which some women wear.

To my mind it's more akin to taking the piss out of Jewish women for wearing wigs or Mormons for wearing their temple garment.

TBH if he was talking about banning it I would have more sympathy - not because I think it should necessarily be banned but because that aspect of the issue is a valid discussion point for a politician whereas merely commenting on it as a style issue isn't - that should be left to lads down the pub or 'Jokes for sad people' on FB which is full of postbox jokes at the moment.
Don't blame me - I voted remain :con

Tony.Williams
Posts: 760
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:05 am
Location: Still somewhere in England
Contact:

Re: Boris Johnson on the Burka

Post by Tony.Williams » Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:02 pm

I actual meant an employer banning it in the workplace rather than a legal ban.

IMO, there should be a legal ban on anyone covering their face in certain specified circumstances where security/identification issues are a legitimate concern (cue lots of debate about exact details), and it should also be legitimate for employers to be able to ban face coverings where appropriate (i.e. when dealing with customers, or in meetings with colleagues).

However such legislation is worded, I don't believe that it should make any reference to religion. As I understand it, there is nothing in the Koran which requires face coverings, they are just an interpretation by a rather extreme fringe. So niqabs, balaclavas, motorcycle helmets etc should all be treated in exactly the same way.

User avatar
chaggle
Posts: 2293
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:01 am

Re: Boris Johnson on the Burka

Post by chaggle » Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:59 pm

That more-or-less matches my thoughts.

The issue of employers specifying what employees must and must not wear is very thorny particularly where women are concerned - but perhaps off topic.

WRT the balaclava/burka/helmet thing, it's all about context and situation.

They are all valid sometimes and not others.

In your security sensitive situations they should all be treated in the same way.

In the office, I can see that the burka might be acceptable in some situations - at least there is a reason however bizarre to wear it - but surely never a helmet or balaclava.
Don't blame me - I voted remain :con

Tony.Williams
Posts: 760
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:05 am
Location: Still somewhere in England
Contact:

Re: Boris Johnson on the Burka

Post by Tony.Williams » Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:16 pm

chaggle wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:59 pm
In the office, I can see that the burka might be acceptable in some situations - at least there is a reason however bizarre to wear it - but surely never a helmet or balaclava.
I think that the problem with that is that it introduces the thorny question of religious exceptionalism, which I am strongly opposed to.

I do realise that Sikh men are allowed not to wear helmets on motorbikes, but I'm not too happy about that.

Post Reply