Brexit consequences

Croydon13013
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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Croydon13013 » Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:20 am

Tony.Williams wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:27 pm
the fact that May and Corbyn have dared to meet to discuss this has apparently enraged substantial numbers of MPs and members on both sides, with shouts of "betrayal!". This has made it glaringly obvious that these people put party interest (or to be precise, the interest of their sects within each party) far above the interests of the country - the hardline Tory Brexiters will do and say anything to force their particular view onto everyone else, while the hardline Labourites are furious that Corbyn might actually help to try to find a solution to the problem. Both sides seem to be digging their tribal bunkers ever deeper while shouting abuse over the parapets, neither giving a damn about finding enough common ground to repair some of the damage which has been done to our society.
What would have seemed weird in any previous time is that the crazies are the right-wings of both parties. The left of Labour are mainly OK with trying to compromise, it is the Blairite wing who are adopting the hard-line-risk-crashing-out policy to try to get revoking. This would seem to be entirely to do with bringing down Corbyn and nothing to do with what is best for the country.

Of course, it's a bit more complicated than that, Skinner sometimes votes with the Tory brexiteers, Kinnock is suddenly supporting Corbyn's position, etc.
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Croydon13013
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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Croydon13013 » Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:45 pm

Anyone got any good Halloween jokes?
thIS sIGnaTure iS an

Croydon13013
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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Croydon13013 » Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:49 pm

17.4 million people knew what they were voting for! Which was, it seems, endless temporary extensions to our EU membership.
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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Tony.Williams » Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:32 pm

We must be making progress - we are now offered flexible extensions (form an orderly queue, gentlemen... ) :ey

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bindeweede
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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by bindeweede » Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:16 pm

An interesting blog post, dated January 29, 2019, but still relevant to the current situation.

"Brexit cannot break the Iron Triangle."

https://heterocephalusgabler.wordpress. ... -triangle/

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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Tony.Williams » Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:12 pm

Very good!

Croydon13013
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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Croydon13013 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:13 am

bindeweede wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:16 pm
An interesting blog post, dated January 29, 2019, but still relevant to the current situation.

"Brexit cannot break the Iron Triangle."

https://heterocephalusgabler.wordpress. ... -triangle/
This is very popular on social media at the moment. If it is helping leavers to understand the situation then that is a good thing. But I suspect that, as usual, the people who would learn from this won't read it. It all seems too obvious to me, how can people not have already realised? And yet...
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bindeweede
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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by bindeweede » Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:33 pm

Is it simply scare-mongering? I really am not sure, but this piece, from Chris Hobbs, a retired Met police officer who worked extensively at border controls in both the UK and Jamaica, is certainly worrying.
The unpalatable fact is that the UK’s borders, even before Brexit, are in a shambolic state. Reports by John Vine and David Bolt, the past and present Chief Inspectors of borders and Immigration, are frequently damning and both have complained that these critical reports are often withheld by the Home Secretary until they can be effectively ’buried’ amidst other bad news.
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/trave ... xit/20/04/

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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Tony.Williams » Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:07 am

Depressing but not surprising.

For any controls on immigration to work, the first priority is to know who is coming in, who is leaving, and who is entitled to stay (for any given length of time). It has been obvious for years that the UK does not know this.

The next stage is to have a trigger system which alerts the authorities when a "right to stay" has expired without the individual leaving the country. However, it seems to be virtually impossible for the authorities to be able to find such individuals, given that there is no requirement for anyone to prove their identities when claiming benefits such as medical care.

The other thing that has long been obvious is that all of the political noise has been about restricting immigration from other EU countries, when immigrants from outside the EU are still being permitted to enter in similar numbers (now, significantly larger numbers) yet governments seem blind to this.

The above comments refer to people entering the country legally. Keeping out the illegal entrants whether concealed in road vehicles or transported by boat or light aircraft, is a whole 'nother problem.

Basically, the control of immigration is a mess, and has been for a long time. The Brexiters played on public alarm about this very successfully in the referendum campaign, without themselves having any practical solution to it.

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bindeweede
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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by bindeweede » Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:37 am

Lord Adonis seems to have surprised many of his supporters by changing his view on Brexit.
Europhile Labour peer Andrew Adonis has befuddled his supporters after he urged Brexiteers to vote for his party while praising Jeremy Corbyn's Brexit plan, despite being one of the most vocal advocates for overturning the referendum result.

Lord Adonis, who describes himself of Twitter as a "Brexit denier", made the comments just days after he was selected to stand as an MEP candidate for the South West of England.

Only two months ago, Lord Adonis compared the Brexit process to appeasement to fascism, tweeting: "I have never hidden my view that the purpose of a second referendum is to stop Brexit, democratically. It is a catastrophic national error, like appeasement in the 1930s. It is the supreme duty of wise national leaders to argue this & to appeal to the British people not to do it."
https://www.totalpolitics.com/articles/ ... ce-eu-exit

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bindeweede
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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by bindeweede » Tue May 07, 2019 8:22 pm

BREXITER PSYCHOSIS. Delusions, Self Deception, And Britain's Political Disorder.

Very interesting and worth a few minutes, imo.

https://bylinetimes.com/2019/05/07/brex ... -disorder/

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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by bindeweede » Fri May 24, 2019 9:18 pm

Researchers gave 11,225 volunteers psychological tests before the referendum and asked how they intended to vote. Results suggest that leavers tended to be less numerate, more impulsive and more prone to accept the unsupported claims of authoritarian figures.

“Compared with remain voters, leave voters displayed significantly lower levels of numeracy and appeared more reliant on impulsive thinking,” said the researchers.
The usual Times paywall, sadly.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news ... -7nk8s3272

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chaggle
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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by chaggle » Sat May 25, 2019 7:36 am

Found this somewhere...
Social scientists are increasingly interested in how personality affects voting. Authoritarian people, who favour conformity and obedience, make up about a third of the population. In America they account for a higher proportion of voters for Donald Trump.

The research suggests there may be similar splits in the UK. “Participants expressing an intent to vote to leave reported significantly higher levels of authoritarianism and conscientiousness . . . than those voting to remain,” researchers said in a paper submitted to the Public Library of Science journal.

Remainers have their own faults. “Remain voters self-reported higher levels of neuroticism, and appeared to be slightly more risk-averse.”

Nigel Farage, the MEP and former Ukip leader, said the research was “divisive and arrogant. Remain voters may have higher IQs but I’m not sure many could boil an egg or set up a business.

“The authoritarianism line is strange, as leave voters want to be free, while remain voters back an undemocratic, authoritarian regime.”

His fellow Brexiteer and veteran Eurosceptic John Redwood MP was more scathing. “What a nasty piece of research,” he said. “We should remember it was intelligent people that gave us the financial crash.”

Perhaps the key finding is not about the brainpower of leavers and remainers but the risk of using referendums to decide complex issues. Many voters, the scientists conclude, “lack the skills to critically evaluate information . . . raising a fundamental question as to whether direct democracy in the form of binary, winner-takes-all referendums is an appropriate mechanism for deciding complicated political issues.”
Don't blame me - I voted remain :con

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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Tony.Williams » Sat May 25, 2019 9:53 am

chaggle wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 7:36 am

Perhaps the key finding is not about the brainpower of leavers and remainers but the risk of using referendums to decide complex issues. Many voters, the scientists conclude, “lack the skills to critically evaluate information . . . raising a fundamental question as to whether direct democracy in the form of binary, winner-takes-all referendums is an appropriate mechanism for deciding complicated political issues.”
That should be the key finding from the experience of the last three years, but few people seem to want to admit it.

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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by chaggle » Sat May 25, 2019 10:34 am

I'm pretty sure most people of the remain persuasion are thinking that.
Don't blame me - I voted remain :con

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