EU Referendum

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bindeweede
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Re: EU Referendum

Post by bindeweede » Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:49 pm

Tony Williams wrote: We'd still keep Gateshead - there would need to be passport controls on the Tyne bridges.
Yes, not forgetting the Shields Ferry and the Jarrow pedestrian/cyclists tunnel - ( closed since 2013 for refurb.)

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Croydon13013 » Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:55 pm

Tony Williams wrote: We'd still keep Gateshead - there would need to be passport controls on the Tyne bridges.
And machine gun posts along the river bank. They would try to swim across in T-shirts in the middle of winter.
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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Tony Williams » Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:56 pm

bindeweede wrote: the Jarrow pedestrian/cyclists tunnel - ( closed since 2013 for refurb.)
Ah yes, I remember walking through that one a few years ago (I have a thing about tunnels), an obvious route for sneaky infiltration...

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Tony Williams » Sun Feb 21, 2016 3:03 pm

Croydon13013 wrote:They would try to swim across in T-shirts in the middle of winter.
Especially after a few pints of Newcastle Brown (do they still brew that? - Aargh, I've just checked: brewed in Tadcaster!).

I recall (but not very clearly) a session in the Newcastle Brewdog pub near the quayside. Potentially lethal...

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by chaggle » Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:04 pm

Our northern members are quiet... :wa
Don't blame me - I voted remain :con

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Tony Williams » Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:48 am

To return to the topic (who said "must we?"?) I see that Boris Johnson has completed his careful calculations as to the course of action which is most likely to strengthen his bid to replace Cameron, and has accordingly made a principled declaration in favour of Brexit :roll:

My intention to vote to remain has just been reinforced...

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by bindeweede » Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:35 am

Tony Williams wrote:
My intention to vote to remain has just been reinforced...
So, he joins That Nice Mr Farage, That Nice Mr Galloway, That Nice Mr Gove and IBS. I'm tending to agree, Tony.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Tony Williams » Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:59 am

An interesting if unfashionable argument put forward with some passion by columnist Matthew Parris in favour of remaining in the EU: that Brexit would be highly destructive to the health and stability of the EU and indeed Europe in general, so we have a moral duty to stick with it and battle to reform it from the inside.

Whether or not you agree with the argument, it is at least a more principled one than the narrow focus on our supposed national interests regardless of the impact on anyone else. And of course, it really would not be in our interests to wreck the EU anyway, whatever we might think of it.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Mon Feb 22, 2016 7:04 pm

Question:
Does getting out of the EU these days strictly equate to want to stop (or seriously slow down) immigration? Or does the question of taxes and so forth enter into it in a big way?

Thanks.
Yes, that one.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Tony Williams » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:28 am

There has been a sizeable anti-EU movement for decades, but this has been exacerbated in recent years by economic, legal and political concerns, as well as the level of immigration.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by chaggle » Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:24 am

I watched a lot of the parliamentary debate yesterday and some of my feelings that the 'inner' arguments aren't being expressed (or even that there aren't any compelling ones) were allayed.

The debate was measured and reasoned - most unlike the xenophobic (and other) hyperbole that's being portrayed in the press and social media.

The politicos showed us how it should be done which is a nice change. I thought Dave handled himself particularly well.

It went some way towards justifying my 'inner' stance which up until now has been based more upon gut feel (faith ) than reason and evidence. You can imagine the cognitive dissonance I've been experiencing!

I think if the referendum were held tomorrow I would vote IN.
Don't blame me - I voted remain :con

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Tony Williams » Tue Feb 23, 2016 10:03 am

chaggle wrote: It went some way towards justifying my 'inner' stance which up until now has been based more upon gut feel (faith ) than reason and evidence. You can imagine the cognitive dissonance I've been experiencing!
Given the impossibility of obtaining any hard evidence with which to compare the consequences of leaving or staying in (too many important unknowns), there's not much else to go on.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Croydon13013 » Tue Feb 23, 2016 12:19 pm

Tony Williams wrote: Given the impossibility of obtaining any hard evidence with which to compare the consequences of leaving or staying in (too many important unknowns), there's not much else to go on.
It certainly is difficult. Obviously we have a better idea of what staying in will be like (and it doesn't scare me); but much less idea of what an exit will do (and the worst-case scares me).

I'm finding myself swayed towards staying in because of the dishonesty of much of the exit arguement. But I'm also aware that it would be hard for the in campaign to get away with lying in the same way because we already know that being in the EU is not a magic solution to everything.

For instance: i'm sick of hearing the media referring to The European Court of Human Rights as if it were an EU thing, when it predates the EU and includes countries such as Turkey and Russia. Leaving the EU will not give us back ultimate control of our courts. It is not the EU meddling when bad, undemocratic, decisions are overturned. It is telling that our Conservative Govt find it hard to live with a legal system created by a Conservative MP and lawyer (David Maxwell Fyfe) because Winston Churchill wanted to impose British values on the rest of Europe.
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bindeweede
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Re: EU Referendum

Post by bindeweede » Tue Feb 23, 2016 10:20 pm

Well, another "character" joins the Brexit list.
Conspiracy Theorist David Icke Backs 'Brexit'
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/02 ... 97112.html

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by chaggle » Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:58 am

This should persuade the 'don't knows' - one way or another... :y

(To switch to full screen, click the Full screen icon in the bottom corner of the video player.

To exit out of full screen, press Esc on your keyboard or click the Full screen icon again.)

Don't blame me - I voted remain :con

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