Brexit consequences

Tony.Williams
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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Tony.Williams » Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:47 am

Very good! Now if everyone could see it...

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bindeweede
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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by bindeweede » Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:17 pm

It is hard to keep up with what is going on in The Commons. A recent tweet from David Allen Green.
If the Crown ignores the will of Parliament we will now have, at long last, the first genuine constitutional crisis of Brexit.

So far Executive/Legislature/Judiciary have resolved respective differences.

But now we have a stark, binary contradiction.

Crown v Parliament.

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chaggle
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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by chaggle » Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:02 am

Is that about the legal advice issue? :con
Don't blame me - I voted remain :con

Tony.Williams
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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Tony.Williams » Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:04 am

chaggle wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:02 am
Is that about the legal advice issue? :con
So I understand. The normal operating principle seems to be that confidential advice to the government should remain confidential, but Parliament is challenging this.

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chaggle
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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by chaggle » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:00 am

I've just caught up on Marr - The Slithy Tovetm was on.

He was saying the usual thing about any second referendum... (all paraphrased)

...that to have one would say to the people that 'you can have a choice but if you make the wrong choice we'll make you choose again' that it would 'undermine faith in our democracy' - 'why are we asking them again - on the basis that they got things wrong last time round'.

To which Marr said - 'things have changed - even you (Gove) didn't know what was going to happen - none of us did'

Gove 'so you think they're thick - too dim'?

So - a ridiculous and obvious straw man which he then corrects...

...'I know you're not saying that but the people who are looking a this would perceive that that's what you think about them.'

He obviously has a very low opinion of the electorate - the man in the street.

I think they (we) are perfectly capable of determining that things have changed - we now know more - and not simply that they (we) are thought of as thick.

In fact I know a good number of people who think just that - that they didn't know enough at the time of the referendum and they know more now.
Don't blame me - I voted remain :con

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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Tony.Williams » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:40 am

Yes, I saw that too.

There is undoubtedly a problem with holding a second referendum - as has been observed, why not then have a further one and choose best of three? This could go on forever. The main problem is that we have no established rules governing how to conduct referendums, they are cuckoos in our parliamentary nest.

However, given that if Brexit is not stopped somehow, we will still be faced with years of negotiation over future trade arrangements with the EU and elsewhere, I regard a second referendum as the lesser of evils.

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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Croydon13013 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:06 pm

Tony.Williams wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:40 am
I regard a second referendum as the lesser of evils.
Yes.

Nobody remotely sane and competent would get the country into this mess. But given that we are where we are...

Hard Brexit or total remain will anger around half the population. Hard Brexit will probably anger the entire population in practice. How to remain without riots, UKIP MPs elected, etc, etc? A second referendum is the least worst option.
thIS sIGnaTure iS an

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bindeweede
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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by bindeweede » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:26 pm

An historical moment. As far as I can tell, a British Government has never been held in contempt of Parliament.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... offrey-cox

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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Tony.Williams » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:04 pm

I suspect that the average citizen holds both the Government and Parliament in contempt. : thdown

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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Croydon13013 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:52 pm

I see that some of the MPs who wanted our parliament to be sovereign "again" and for MPs to be able to make up their own minds; and who wanted a referendum so that "the people" could decide...

Now don't want parliament to be sovereign, it should do as it is told; and don't want a "people's vote" referendum as that might overturn their personal interests.
thIS sIGnaTure iS an

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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Tony.Williams » Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:31 pm

This is a fun item (not) - an extract from a newspaper summary:
It would be nice to think that the Brexit issue is soon going to be settled one way or another, allowing politics to return to normal, said Robert Shrimsley in the FT. But that's not going to happen. The divisions over Brexit will endure for years. A recent study by the political scientist John Curtice showed that their "Brexit identity" means far more to voters than their party allegiances. That won't change, whether we end up leaving or not. The issue cuts across party lines and and will have a huge influence over how parties evolve. The sad fact is that Brexit is "now a permanent aspect of our politics and we are nowhere close to grasping its full impact".
I always believed that Brexit would provide unparalleled opportunities for the Law of Unintended Consequences to demonstrate its validity, but it seems to be only just getting into its stride.

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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by bindeweede » Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:55 pm

"The ‘meaningful vote’ debate: still riddled with pretence, incoherence and fantasy."

Perceptive post from Chris Grey, Professor of Organization Studies at Royal Holloway, University of London, and previously a Professor at Cambridge University and Warwick University.
As I noted at the time they did it, it was to MP’s shame that they voted, overwhelmingly, to trigger Article 50, not knowing how to do Brexit but, for the most part, knowing that however it was done it would be bad for the country. That they did so is still used by Theresa May and the Brexiters as a stick to beat them with. From that cowardly squandering of the opportunity given them by Gina Miller’s court action all this mess has flown. If, at this late date, they minimise – because that’s the very most it will be - the damage it will only underscore the folly and irresponsibility of what they set in train with that vote.
http://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com ... still.html

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