Brexit consequences

Matt
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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Matt » Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:17 pm

From James O'Brien
https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/946308176126922752
Replacing Davis with an incontinent baboon would obviously be an improvement.
Replacing him with an ‘unelected bureaucrat’ is an irony no doubt lost on most Brexists.

Tony.Williams
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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Tony.Williams » Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:32 pm

I think that most Brexiteers are probably impervious to irony. :roll:

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bindeweede
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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by bindeweede » Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:13 pm

Interesting piece from that Lefty rag, The Financial Times.
Theresa May’s government says it is progressing on Brexit, after striking an initial divorce deal with the bloc this month. But leaving the EU is not just about negotiation and legislation; it is also about implementation and infrastructure.
Once Britain leaves the EU’s customs union, the UK will no longer be able to rely on the port facilities in Rotterdam or elsewhere in the EU — and will instead have to develop its own, for trade both with Europe and beyond.

Well worth a read,imo.

https://www.ft.com/content/b5ee770a-ced ... 3e61754ec6

ETA. Sadly, link no longer works. It did, but no longer. Further edit. This link does work. https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/com ... of_brexit/

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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Tony.Williams » Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:23 am

bindeweede wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:13 pm
Interesting piece from that Lefty rag, The Financial Times.
Yes - but it'll be OK, we're getting £350 million a week for the NHS :fp

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bindeweede
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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by bindeweede » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:40 pm

That nice Mr Farridge has got himself lots of media coverage today. And he's normally such a shy type. :lol:

"Nigel Farage admits Brexit vote could be reversed as Remainers gain momentum."

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/nigel-farage-a ... um-1655119

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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Croydon13013 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:28 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-s ... s-42682253

Hard Brexit 'would cost Scots £12.7bn'
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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Tony.Williams » Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:59 pm

bindeweede wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:40 pm
That nice Mr Farridge has got himself lots of media coverage today. And he's normally such a shy type. :lol:
I suspect that he's jealous about all the publicity his successor has been gaining lately (not to mention his racist young girlfriend). There's no such thing as bad publicity, right?.... :fp

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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Matt » Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:19 pm

Must admit that I saw all the headlines about "UKIP leader's girlfriend" and quite forgot that "UKIP Leader" didn't refer to Farage this week.
Telling that the headline didn't specify Mr Bolton by name.

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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Tony.Williams » Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:20 am

bindeweede wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:40 pm

"Nigel Farage admits Brexit vote could be reversed as Remainers gain momentum."
The thought crossed my mind - a more accurate reflection of what he said could have been "Nigel Farage warns Brexit vote could be reversed as Remainders gain momentum."

Interesting what a difference a change in wording can make to the impression given....

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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Tony.Williams » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:18 am

Bojo the Clown is at it again: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42698981
The controversial claim that the UK sends £350m a week to the EU was a "gross underestimate", Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson has said.
He told the Guardian the UK's contribution was already £362m a week and would rise to £438m by the end of the post-Brexit transition period.
Vote Leave's claim that £350m could go to the NHS instead was hotly disputed during the EU referendum.
Labour accused Mr Johnson of returning "to the scene of his previous crimes".
A campaign bus used by Vote Leave, including Mr Johnson himself, during the referendum campaign was emblazoned with the slogan: "We send the EU £350 million a week - let's fund our NHS instead."
It was widely criticised because £350m per week is an approximate sum for the UK's "gross contribution" to Brussels.
It doesn't take account of the country's rebate of £75m a week which means that the true amount leaving the Treasury's coffers is significantly lower.
And this is the quality of evidence-based argument that influenced the most important decision taken by the UK in a generation. As the article goes on:
Among those to criticise Mr Johnson's use of the figure was the head of the UK's statistics watchdog, Sir David Norgrove, who called it "a clear misuse of official statistics".
Bojo seems to be a clear case of the old observation that recent recruits to a cause tend to be the most passionate in their advocacy. It's as if he feels that he needs to make up for his initial uncertainty by being "Brexier than the rest". Or is he still just working to position himself as the darling of the Tory right, to take over when the Maybot implodes?

The irony would be if he at last succeeded in his life-long ambition to be a Churchillian leader at the same moment that the Tory party shrinks to a right-wing rump with no chance of gaining power.

The trouble is, the UK is caught in a political Catch-22: our system is broken and unrepresentative, and the only solution to that would be a drastic reform of the voting system. But for that to happen would require the turkeys to vote for Christmas.

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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Matt » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:46 am

Tony.Williams wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:18 am
The trouble is, the UK is caught in a political Catch-22: our system is broken and unrepresentative, and the only solution to that would be a drastic reform of the voting system. But for that to happen would require the turkeys to vote for Christmas.
Or more disturbingly perhaps the system is representative and the nation where I was brought up to value honour, decency, fair play, good manners, selflessness, inclusiveness and respect for others; happens to include a large population of spoiled, snivelling, hateful runts who don't deserve to be called British. An underclass who have found their voice and are currently trampling on our heritage by falling for the same racist scapegoating and siding with the very kind of fascist, who we stood against, shoulder to shoulder with refugees from all across Europe in the greatest hour of national pride in living memory.

I hope you're right because the alternative literally keeps me awake at night.

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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Tony.Williams » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:44 pm

There is something in what you say, I'm afraid, although we also ought to acknowledge that every generation, as it grows older, comes to regard the younger generation as a dismal bunch sadly lacking in the fine qualities we were taught. In fact, there are, and always have been, good, bad and indifferent (the majority) citizens in every age group. We are just aware of this diversity a lot more than we used to be because somebody allowed the undesirables (however you define them) access to the internet...

A major problem, IMO, is that the majority of the population feels detached from the political process. There may be a number of reasons for this, but one of the most obvious is that our electoral system is actually a deterrent to participation - because the overwhelming majority of the votes counts for nothing. IIRC a political analyst studied the last election and worked out that the outcome was actually decided by about 60,000 votes in critical constituencies. As a result, many do not bother to vote, resulting in governments being formed with the support of a minority of those who voted - and a much smaller percentage of the electorate eligible to vote.

The answer to this problem is not simple and straightforward, and may not be provided by the adoption of one of the traditional voting alternatives (even though they could hardly be any worse). Much as I hate to admit it, having abandoned my smartphone for a simpler device which I use only for telephone calls, we need to be exploring how we can use modern communications technology to help. However, the danger is that if voting becomes too easy, people will just (continue to) vote on gut instinct without thinking about the issues. Another danger is that even if people do try to learn about the issues, they may be misled by the flood of fake news (which brings us back to the referendum).

Maybe voting should be more of a questionnaire designed to elicit the views and priorities of the electorate, rather than the ridiculously simplistic "left vs right" choice we have now? I don't know the answer, but I fear that our society will continue its downward slide if we do nothing.

P.S. I was just thinking the other day that if it were possible to produce a "state of the nation" graph, taking into account a wide range of factors: wealth, health, education, contentment, status in the world etc, then the UK could be said to have peaked around about the year 2000, and has been slowly sliding downhill since. Even more worryingly, I have the feeling that much the same could be said for Western civilisation. Fortunately, I'm too old to have to worry about learning Mandarin.

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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Croydon13013 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:59 pm

Tony.Williams wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:44 pm
although we also ought to acknowledge that every generation, as it grows older, comes to regard the younger generation as a dismal bunch sadly lacking in the fine qualities we were taught.
But in the case of Brexit it isn't the younger generation that are the problem. On average the younger people are against the various forms of hate, whether based on sexuality, skin colour, place of birth, etc. It is the older generation who voted for Brexit.

I've spent a fair amount of time recently with young Momentum members and their positive hate-free attitude is really inspiring. I'm feeling a little more hopeful for the future if people like this take control of the country.
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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Tony.Williams » Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:26 pm

Croydon13013 wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:59 pm
I've spent a fair amount of time recently with young Momentum members and their positive hate-free attitude is really inspiring. I'm feeling a little more hopeful for the future if people like this take control of the country.
Yes, young people tend to be idealistic and enthusiastic - although that sometimes makes them intolerant of those who don't share their views. Before taking over the country, they first need to take over Momentum, whose leaders don't seem to be over-endowed with a hate-free attitude, even where a lot of Labour MPs are concerned...

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Re: Brexit consequences

Post by chaggle » Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:32 pm

Tony.Williams wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:44 pm
... However, the danger is that if voting becomes too easy, people will just (continue to) vote on gut instinct without thinking about the issues....
Good points being made.

To pick up on this one, it's not so bad if gut feeling is being used to pick a group of people of like mind and political orientation to represent your general stance in parliament - the basis of our parliamentary party representative democracy.

But we've been badly spooked by the disastrous referendum which allowed ignorant people (that's all of us - I'm not only being rude to leavers for once) to make a vital strategic decision based largely on this gut feel.

There may well be problems with the way we do politics but I don't think we should necessarily jump to make changes based solely on the events of the last two years.
Don't blame me - I voted remain :con

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