Brexit consequences

User avatar
bindeweede
Site Admin
Posts: 3151
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:45 pm
Location: Hertfordshire, UK

Re: Brexit consequences

Post by bindeweede » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:46 pm

I'm not saying anything new, but the viciousness, racism and xenophobia apparently released by the EURef worries and depresses me. I expect those factors have been under the surface for years, but no longer.

Just one recent example.
The high profile backbench Tory MP Anna Soubry has compiled a dossier of threats and abuse, including demands for her to be hanged for treason, over her stand against Brexit.

Her report was handed to the House of Commons Speaker as Prime Minister Theresa May and Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn condemned the increase in intimidation and abuse against MPs.
"Ms Soubry said: “We’re in danger of fanatical ideologically driven extremists controlling British politics.” Not much doubt about it. And it's worrying. Whether she and those who agree with her will actually take any effective kind of action or not is another issue, of course.

https://www.birminghampost.co.uk/news/r ... ign=buffer

Tony.Williams
Posts: 573
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:05 am
Location: Still somewhere in England
Contact:

Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Tony.Williams » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:46 am

I think that such abuse isn't caused by events like Brexit, it's a result of everyone suddenly finding that instead of having no-one to complain to about developments they don't like, they've now got everyone to complain to or blame. It doesn't just happen over Brexit, it happens whenever any even mildly controversial issue arises - some nutters start issuing death threats.

Croydon13013
Posts: 1324
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:48 pm

Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Croydon13013 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:34 pm

Tony.Williams wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:26 pm
Before taking over the country, they first need to take over Momentum, whose leaders don't seem to be over-endowed with a hate-free attitude, even where a lot of Labour MPs are concerned...
I'm not sure where this comes from or what it means. The leadership of Momentum seem OK and hate-free to me. I realise that the Daily Mail and various Blairite MPs see it differently but I don't think that the evidence supports them. Wanting to deselect a lazy or self-interested MP who is not representing their constituents is democracy, not hate.
thIS sIGnaTure iS an

Croydon13013
Posts: 1324
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:48 pm

Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Croydon13013 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:01 pm

Tony.Williams wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:26 pm
Before taking over the country, they first need to take over Momentum, whose leaders don't seem to be over-endowed with a hate-free attitude, even where a lot of Labour MPs are concerned...
I'm not sure what you mean. Democracy isn't hate. Deselecting an MP who isn't doing their job properly should be a basic achievable task in any political party.
thIS sIGnaTure iS an

Croydon13013
Posts: 1324
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:48 pm

Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Croydon13013 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:05 pm

Tony.Williams wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:46 am
I think that such abuse isn't caused by events like Brexit, it's a result of everyone suddenly finding that instead of having no-one to complain to about developments they don't like, they've now got everyone to complain to or blame. It doesn't just happen over Brexit, it happens whenever any even mildly controversial issue arises - some nutters start issuing death threats.
Yes, but Brexit helped to normalise it. To make the racist nutters think that they represent the 52% and that it is now OK to go public with their hate and abuse. Obviously other things (such as the Daily Mail) also normalise hate and abuse, but Brexit added to it in a big way.
thIS sIGnaTure iS an

Tony.Williams
Posts: 573
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:05 am
Location: Still somewhere in England
Contact:

Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Tony.Williams » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:43 pm

Croydon13013 wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:34 pm

I'm not sure where this comes from or what it means. The leadership of Momentum seem OK and hate-free to me. I realise that the Daily Mail and various Blairite MPs see it differently but I don't think that the evidence supports them. Wanting to deselect a lazy or self-interested MP who is not representing their constituents is democracy, not hate.
One example, from The Times:
Speakers at a conference run by the Corbynista group Momentum discussed launching a campaign of hate against the prime minister’s husband Philip May at the start of the general election.

Asked what the left should do during the campaign, Paolo Gerbaudo, director of the centre for digital culture at King’s College London, said: “My answer is hate . . . Make the left hate again . . . I’m full of hate these days.”

Gerbaudo complained that the hatred in society was taken out on the wrong people before suggesting Philip May as a legitimate target. “There’s so many right people to take it out against,”.

Tony.Williams
Posts: 573
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:05 am
Location: Still somewhere in England
Contact:

Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Tony.Williams » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:48 pm

Croydon13013 wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:01 pm
Tony.Williams wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:26 pm
Before taking over the country, they first need to take over Momentum, whose leaders don't seem to be over-endowed with a hate-free attitude, even where a lot of Labour MPs are concerned...
I'm not sure what you mean. Democracy isn't hate. Deselecting an MP who isn't doing their job properly should be a basic achievable task in any political party.
Jeremy Corbyn has refused to distance himself from the left-wing Momentum campaign group despite claims from Labour women MPs that they are being targeted by its supporters with online and offline abuse.

The Labour leader came under pressure at a meeting of the Women’s Parliamentary Labour Party (PLP) as a string of MPs, some on the edge of tears, gave accounts of the attacks they had suffered in recent months

During the hour-long meeting in the Commons on Tuesday, Parliamentarians recounted how they had been threatened with deselection and had felt that Momentum supporters had ‘incited’ harassment and even rape threats.

Some MPs faced local Momentum leaflets claiming they wanted to privatise the NHS.

Women’s PLP chair Jess Phillips said that it was bad enough colleagues having to suffer abuse from those outside the Labour movement, without having to endure harassment from people within it.

Tony.Williams
Posts: 573
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:05 am
Location: Still somewhere in England
Contact:

Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Tony.Williams » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:51 pm

And more:
The controversy over abuse aimed at Labour MPs escalated today as Momentum’s campaign chief said she “understands” the anger people are trying to express.

Emma Rees, chief organiser of the grassroots group, said the outbursts were “a response to feeling disempowered by the system” and to the “society we’re living in”.

Momentum Facebook groups have discussed the deselection of MPs who defy party leader Jeremy Corbyn and described Blairite factions as hard-Right extremists and “scabs”.

Croydon13013
Posts: 1324
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:48 pm

Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Croydon13013 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:10 pm

Tony.Williams wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:43 pm
One example, from The Times:
Speakers at a conference run by the Corbynista group Momentum discussed launching a campaign of hate against the prime minister’s husband Philip May at the start of the general election.

Asked what the left should do during the campaign, Paolo Gerbaudo, director of the centre for digital culture at King’s College London, said: “My answer is hate . . . Make the left hate again . . . I’m full of hate these days.”

Gerbaudo complained that the hatred in society was taken out on the wrong people before suggesting Philip May as a legitimate target. “There’s so many right people to take it out against,”.
Murdoch BS. Very out of context. Gerbaudo is a respected University lecturer and has written for the Guardian. He isn't a raving loon.

His take:

https://twitter.com/paologerbaudo/statu ... 0742756352
thIS sIGnaTure iS an

Croydon13013
Posts: 1324
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:48 pm

Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Croydon13013 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:18 pm

Tony.Williams wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:51 pm
And more:
Momentum Facebook groups have discussed the deselection of MPs who defy party leader Jeremy Corbyn and described Blairite factions as hard-Right extremists and “scabs”.
Again, I don't see a problem here. This is democracy, not hate. If the above quote is the best that the right-wing can come up with after reading Facebook groups where any idiot can join and post then there is really nothing to worry about. I could write a more damaging assessment of Skeps by quoting from the Facebook group.
thIS sIGnaTure iS an

Tony.Williams
Posts: 573
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:05 am
Location: Still somewhere in England
Contact:

Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Tony.Williams » Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:00 am

Croydon13013 wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:10 pm

Murdoch BS. Very out of context. Gerbaudo is a respected University lecturer and has written for the Guardian. He isn't a raving loon.

His take:

https://twitter.com/paologerbaudo/statu ... 0742756352
I don't see how being a "respected university lecturer" makes saying such things in public any more acceptable - quite the reverse, IMO, I would expect higher standards and more responsible behaviour. People are quick enough to pour their hate into the Twittersphere as it is without being encouraged by this kind of statement.

And I had to laugh at his supporters excusing him by saying that it had happened "7 months ago" - tell that to Toby Young, and everyone else currently caught out by historic actions and statements.

Tony.Williams
Posts: 573
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:05 am
Location: Still somewhere in England
Contact:

Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Tony.Williams » Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:02 am

Croydon13013 wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:18 pm

Again, I don't see a problem here. This is democracy, not hate. If the above quote is the best that the right-wing can come up with after reading Facebook groups where any idiot can join and post then there is really nothing to worry about. I could write a more damaging assessment of Skeps by quoting from the Facebook group.
But Momentum is one step away from running the country - Skeps needs a little more work in that direction...

Croydon13013
Posts: 1324
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:48 pm

Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Croydon13013 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:00 am

Tony.Williams wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:00 am

I don't see how being a "respected university lecturer" makes saying such things in public any more acceptable - quite the reverse, IMO, I would expect higher standards and more responsible behaviour. People are quick enough to pour their hate into the Twittersphere as it is without being encouraged by this kind of statement.

And I had to laugh at his supporters excusing him by saying that it had happened "7 months ago" - tell that to Toby Young, and everyone else currently caught out by historic actions and statements.
The point is that this is a pretentious intellectual using "hate" in an abstract way. He was talking about channelling anger in a positive way, not about throwing bricks or sending anonymous death threats. You are, like The Times, taking one word used by one person, out of context, to try to smear a mass-movement of over half a million people.

I don't think that the point about "7 months ago" was trying to excuse the comment. It was making the point that the Murdoch press just randomly dredge up this nonsense every time they have a slow-news day. They did it again yesterday with a front page headline claiming "Corbyn allies plot to oust 50 Labour MPs". The article is based on a one line quote from an unnamed source, which claims that other people have told them about the list. Neither the unnamed source nor the Sunday Times have seen the alleged list, and nor do they know who allegedly wrote it. They don’t even claim that the authors were Momentum or Labour Party members.

This shit is worthy of 1984; no better than Pravda. And some people, including you, fall for it.
thIS sIGnaTure iS an

Tony.Williams
Posts: 573
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:05 am
Location: Still somewhere in England
Contact:

Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Tony.Williams » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:33 am

Croydon13013 wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:00 am

This shit is worthy of 1984; no better than Pravda. And some people, including you, fall for it.
However the speaker may have meant it, that doesn't alter the fact that making such statements can only inflame people on both sides - those supporters who might be inspired to follow suit and assume that they have licence to do so, and those on the other side who love to take offence and grab any excuse. So it creates a heck of a lot of heat and no light - not sensible these days.

User avatar
bindeweede
Site Admin
Posts: 3151
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:45 pm
Location: Hertfordshire, UK

Re: Brexit consequences

Post by bindeweede » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:55 pm

I expect it is just me, but trying to keep up with what is happening regarding the (potentially disastrous) farce of Brexit is increasingly difficult. This, from The Independent, only a couple of hours ago.
The UK has already “agreed in principle” to a Norway-style Brexit transition period in which it accepts all EU rules with no power to shape them, a senior figure in Brussels has told The Independent.

A key member of the European Parliament’s Brexit team said British negotiators raised no objections to the plans, which would mean accepting free movement and customs union rules, and falling under the European Court’s jurisdiction.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 73076.html

:con

Post Reply