Brexit consequences

Tony.Williams
Posts: 762
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:05 am
Location: Still somewhere in England
Contact:

Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Tony.Williams » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:24 am

bindeweede wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:55 pm
I expect it is just me, but trying to keep up with what is happening regarding the (potentially disastrous) farce of Brexit is increasingly difficult. This, from The Independent, only a couple of hours ago.
The UK has already “agreed in principle” to a Norway-style Brexit transition period in which it accepts all EU rules with no power to shape them, a senior figure in Brussels has told The Independent.

A key member of the European Parliament’s Brexit team said British negotiators raised no objections to the plans, which would mean accepting free movement and customs union rules, and falling under the European Court’s jurisdiction.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 73076.html

:con
I think this is pretty well inevitable during the transition period, despite the huffing and puffing of the principal Brexiteers who won't be satisfied with anything other than a complete break asap.

With any luck, the various compromises which are beginning to emerge from the negotiations will soften the impact so that we will only suffer moderate pain, rather than the acute pain of going over the cliff-edge.

Croydon13013
Posts: 1362
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:48 pm

Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Croydon13013 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:07 am

Tony.Williams wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:33 am
However the speaker may have meant it, that doesn't alter the fact that making such statements can only inflame people on both sides - those supporters who might be inspired to follow suit and assume that they have licence to do so, and those on the other side who love to take offence and grab any excuse. So it creates a heck of a lot of heat and no light - not sensible these days.
You started off by claiming that the leaders of Momentum "hate" lots of Labour MPs, and ended up with nothing but criticism of one word used by one individual who is just one member of Momentum.

Momentum are a bunch of nice, well meaning, people. They're also the largest pro-remain organisation in the UK.
thIS sIGnaTure iS an

Tony.Williams
Posts: 762
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:05 am
Location: Still somewhere in England
Contact:

Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Tony.Williams » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:17 am

Croydon13013 wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:07 am

Momentum are a bunch of nice, well meaning, people. They're also the largest pro-remain organisation in the UK.
I hope you are right, although that is certainly not the impression I have gained from a wide range of news sources. Furthermore, even if they are nice people, I am concerned about what they might do if in power. Sadly, youthful enthusiasm and idealism tend to be accompanied by inexperience and naivety. And many of their supporters are too young to remember Britain in the 1970s when the influence of the hard left was last at a peak, when the country was sliding downhill at an even more rapid rate, and to much greater depths, than it is now.

Tony.Williams
Posts: 762
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:05 am
Location: Still somewhere in England
Contact:

Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Tony.Williams » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:45 am

Tony.Williams wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:44 pm

P.S. I was just thinking the other day that if it were possible to produce a "state of the nation" graph, taking into account a wide range of factors: wealth, health, education, contentment, status in the world etc, then the UK could be said to have peaked around about the year 2000, and has been slowly sliding downhill since. Even more worryingly, I have the feeling that much the same could be said for Western civilisation. Fortunately, I'm too old to have to worry about learning Mandarin.
By an unhappy coincidence, I see that the current issue of New Scientist has an article by Laura Spinney, "The writing on the wall", with the strapline "There are disturbing hints that Western civilisation is starting to crumble".

It includes an analysis of the collapse of previous civilisations and compares the factors which applied then with the present situation. Don't read it if you are feeling depressed or fragile....

User avatar
chaggle
Posts: 2294
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:01 am

Re: Brexit consequences

Post by chaggle » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:11 am

Tony.Williams wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:17 am
Croydon13013 wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:07 am

Momentum are a bunch of nice, well meaning, people. They're also the largest pro-remain organisation in the UK.
I hope you are right, although that is certainly not the impression I have gained from a wide range of news sources. Furthermore, even if they are nice people, I am concerned about what they might do if in power. Sadly, youthful enthusiasm and idealism tend to be accompanied by inexperience and naivety. And many of their supporters are too young to remember Britain in the 1970s when the influence of the hard left was last at a peak, when the country was sliding downhill at an even more rapid rate, and to much greater depths, than it is now.
If momentum are pro-remain then surely they are at odds with Corbyn who has always been to some extent anti EU and even now when I suspect realpolitik has supplanted his socialist idealism, is not exactly beating the remainer drum.

I agree with you about the ´70s - don´t want to go back there.
Don't blame me - I voted remain :con

Croydon13013
Posts: 1362
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:48 pm

Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Croydon13013 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:34 am

chaggle wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:11 am
If momentum are pro-remain then surely they are at odds with Corbyn who has always been to some extent anti EU and even now when I suspect realpolitik has supplanted his socialist idealism, is not exactly beating the remainer drum.
Indeed. They are at odds with Corbyn over the EU and also with Jon Lansman, the founder of Momentum. The average member of Momentum is young and new to politics. They are mostly very pro-EU. Remainers dominate the grass-roots of the Labour Party now.
thIS sIGnaTure iS an

Tony.Williams
Posts: 762
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:05 am
Location: Still somewhere in England
Contact:

Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Tony.Williams » Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:40 am

Croydon13013 wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:34 am

Indeed. They are at odds with Corbyn over the EU and also with Jon Lansman, the founder of Momentum. The average member of Momentum is young and new to politics. They are mostly very pro-EU. Remainers dominate the grass-roots of the Labour Party now.
I await with interest the prospect of the youthful grass-roots in Momentum defenestrating Lansman and their other leaders... :D

User avatar
chaggle
Posts: 2294
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:01 am

Re: Brexit consequences

Post by chaggle » Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:33 pm

Just to be clear about his intentions, Corbyn has just said on Andrew Marr that "Labour will not hold a second referendum. We are leaving the EU".
Don't blame me - I voted remain :con

Tony.Williams
Posts: 762
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:05 am
Location: Still somewhere in England
Contact:

Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Tony.Williams » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:25 pm

Not Norway or Canada - but Melilla! https://uk.yahoo.com/news/post-brexit-m ... 53474.html
The common agricultural policy does not apply to them. Nor do VAT rules or fishing quotas. Crucially, Ceuta and Melilla do not belong to the customs union – but enjoy the same trading rights as if they did.
Nice try, but I somehow doubt it.... :hat

User avatar
chaggle
Posts: 2294
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:01 am

Re: Brexit consequences

Post by chaggle » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:39 pm

Complicated stuff innit? :gh
Don't blame me - I voted remain :con

Matt
Posts: 860
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:50 pm

Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Matt » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:43 pm

Interesting. Apparently it's a part of Spain that isn't joined to Spain.
Though autonomous, the Spanish have sovereignty. Don't ask me how that works. According to wikitravel It is "territorio franco" which means no VAT or other taxes.

Perhaps the Jersey model is closer to the cake and eat it ideal of being in the customs unions but not accepting freedom of movement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jersey#Re ... pean_Union

User avatar
chaggle
Posts: 2294
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:01 am

Re: Brexit consequences

Post by chaggle » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:15 pm

There are lots of bits and pieces around the world which have odd statuses vis a vis the EU.

One I am familiar with is Gibraltar which is a member of the EU due to its relationship with the UK but is not a member of the customs union, CAP and fisheries policy do not apply and freedom of movement of goods doesn't apply.

10,000 people cross the border, mostly Spaniards, from Spain to Gib and back to work each day.

They voted 99% to remain British a few years ago and, in the EU referendum, 94% to remain in the EU.

They will leave when we do.
Don't blame me - I voted remain :con

Tony.Williams
Posts: 762
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:05 am
Location: Still somewhere in England
Contact:

Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Tony.Williams » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:55 pm

chaggle wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:15 pm
They will leave when we do.
Yes. And Spain was threatening to make its status an issue in the Brexit negotiations. Which I think is a bit cheeky given how upset they get when anyone queries the status of Ceuta and Melilla.
:agg

User avatar
chaggle
Posts: 2294
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:01 am

Re: Brexit consequences

Post by chaggle » Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:20 pm

Spain says that's different because Ceuta and Melilla were Spanish before Morocco existed. :con
Don't blame me - I voted remain :con

Matt
Posts: 860
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:50 pm

Re: Brexit consequences

Post by Matt » Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:23 pm

To be fair Morocco was Spanish before Morocco existed. or French. or British depending where and when your Tardis lands

Post Reply