Badger cull

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Tinkerbell
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Re: Badger cull

Post by Tinkerbell » Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:08 pm

smudge wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... estershire

A shame nobody pointed out the impracticalities of the plan before they started.

Ah! Wait…. !
The controversial badger cull in Gloucestershire is being abandoned after marksmen failed to kill enough animals to meet even drastically reduced targets, the Guardian revealed on Friday.
:yea :yea :yea :yea :yea :yea :yea :yea :yea :yea :yea :yea :yea :yea :yea

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Asthmatic Camel
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Re: Badger cull

Post by Asthmatic Camel » Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:09 pm

Am I the only one who couldn't care less?

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Zep
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Re: Badger cull

Post by Zep » Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:09 pm

Clearly I'm missing some linkages.

1) What is the link between badgers and TB?
2) Is there any research on this to work from?
3) Who is "wanting" to cull badgers, if not the fox-hunt type toffs?
4) I'm not from here. What exactly is a badger? (And please don't post that Weebles video again.)

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chaggle
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Re: Badger cull

Post by chaggle » Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:10 pm

Zep wrote:Clearly I'm missing some linkages.

1) What is the link between badgers and TB?
2) Is there any research on this to work from?
3) Who is "wanting" to cull badgers, if not the fox-hunt type toffs?
4) I'm not from here. What exactly is a badger? (And please don't post that Weebles video again.)
1) Badgers are alleged to give cows TB
2) Don't really know. If there is, many people think it's dodgy
3) Farmers and the government - nothing to do with hunting
4) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badger
Badgers are short-legged omnivores in the family Mustelidae which also includes the otters, polecats, weasels and wolverines.
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Tinkerbell
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Re: Badger cull

Post by Tinkerbell » Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:11 pm

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Croydon13013
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Re: Badger cull

Post by Croydon13013 » Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:12 pm

chaggle wrote:1) Badgers are alleged to give cows TB
2) Don't really know. If there is, many people think it's dodgy
1) Not exactly. Cows spread Bovine TB to badgers. Very occasionally this is passed back to cattle. It always originates with cattle.

2) There's lots of research, some mentioned in this thread. The problem for the Govt and National Farmers Union is that it does not support the idea that a badger cull will help. That is explicitly why the Govt is carrying out the latest cull. To see if an even bigger slaughter of our largest native carnivore will give different results to the previous culls which all either failed to have any effect or were associated with an increase in bovine TB amongst cattle.
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smudge
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Re: Badger cull

Post by smudge » Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:13 pm

Croydon13013 wrote:
chaggle wrote:1) Badgers are alleged to give cows TB
2) Don't really know. If there is, many people think it's dodgy
1) Not exactly. Cows spread Bovine TB to badgers. Very occasionally this is passed back to cattle. It always originates with cattle.

2) There's lots of research, some mentioned in this thread. The problem for the Govt and National Farmers Union is that it does not support the idea that a badger cull will help. That is explicitly why the Govt is carrying out the latest cull. To see if an even bigger slaughter of our largest native carnivore will give different results to the previous culls which all either failed to have any effect or were associated with an increase in bovine TB amongst cattle.

Yep.

One of the main conclusions from earlier research was that unless at least 70% of badgers were killed in a given area cases of bovine TB among badgers was made worse because the attempted cull upset established badger groups meaning survivors fled. Problem being that badger numbers are not accurately known to start with.
Exactly how much shooting a badger puts up with before fleeing to the next county (and taking bovine TB with him) is anyones guess.

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Re: Badger cull

Post by Croydon13013 » Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:13 pm

smudge wrote: Yep.

One of the main conclusions from earlier research was that unless at least 70% of badgers were killed in a given area cases of bovine TB among badgers was made worse because the attempted cull upset established badger groups meaning survivors fled. Problem being that badger numbers are not accurately known to start with.
Exactly how much shooting a badger puts up with before fleeing to the next county (and taking bovine TB with him) is anyones guess.
Yup.

Previous cull attempts made things worse. Govt pulls numbers out of its fat bottom and says killing 70% of badgers will reduce TB in cattle by 16%. There's no evidence to support this but even if true - then the taxpayer is paying £millions to reduce TB in cows by only 16%? Why not use that money to better enforce the law and make farmers improve the filthy conditions they keep their cattle in and get them to isolate sick animals, not move them around the country spreading disease.

And why not stop paying farmers compensation for animals that die of TB? Something that gives them no incentive to try and contain the sickness. "It wasn't my fault that I moved some sick animals in with that herd and they all got TB, there are some badgers 20 miles down the road, it was their fault, now give me my cash."

The poor little "destructive, noisy nuisances" are scapegoats for NFU greed and corruption.
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smudge
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Re: Badger cull

Post by smudge » Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:14 pm

Croydon13013 wrote:
The poor little "destructive, noisy nuisances" are scapegoats for NFU greed and corruption.
The policy has always struck me as a case of "something must be done, this is something, therefore…."

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Zep
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Re: Badger cull

Post by Zep » Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:15 pm

As an outsider, I'm confused.

How on earth does a badger give a cow TB? By coughing on it? Biting it? Humping its leg?

If this is just an excuse for a "mate's rates" government handout to be given and received then that's pretty sad.

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Re: Badger cull

Post by smudge » Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:15 pm

Urine and faeces allegedly Zep.
There is a lack of data. Certainly badgers can carry it (as can deer, moles, domestic cats). The dynamics of which species passes it to whom, how, and how often is not clearly understood. I think the thing with badgers is that they can carry it for a long time without any apparent ill effects- thus potentially, spreading it. But mostly the finger is pointed badgers based on correlation rather than a full understanding of what is actually going on. Easier to blame badgers than clean up farming practices.

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Zep
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Re: Badger cull

Post by Zep » Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:16 pm

Thanks, Smudge.

Really, if those were the vectors, cows would also be stepping in crap from just about every other animal that had been in the fields: cats, dogs, sheep, goats, llamas, foxes, adders, moles, voles and toads. With some of those also known carriers of TB, it's really hard to fathom why badgers alone get singled out.

I still can't help but feel that some people with a set of Purdey shotguns and a severe overbite likes to play pick-a-pest and go shooting indiscriminately. Partridge move too fast for them, badgers not so much I guess.

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Asthmatic Camel
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Re: Badger cull

Post by Asthmatic Camel » Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:17 pm

Croydon13013 wrote: The poor little "destructive, noisy nuisances" are scapegoats for NFU greed and corruption.
You might feel rather differently if Mr. Badger and his family invaded your property, where they have more rights than squatters and certainly more than foxes, being almost impossible to remove legally.

I don't see why they should; they're by no means an endangered species and they are destructive and noisy, whatever Kenneth Grahame fans may like to think.

Just saying.

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Re: Badger cull

Post by Croydon13013 » Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:17 pm

Asthmatic Camel wrote: You might feel rather differently if Mr. Badger and his family invaded your property, where they have more rights than squatters and certainly more than foxes, being almost impossible to remove legally.

I don't see why they should; they're by no means an endangered species and they are destructive and noisy, whatever Kenneth Grahame fans may like to think.

Just saying.
Where my parents live, just a couple of miles from me, badgers are becoming urbanised and are a pest like foxes are. I'll probably get them within a few years.

I don't have a problem with dealing with pests where they are being a nuisance.

But I do object to £millions being wasted on a stupid scheme that will achieve nothing. Kill the badgers in your back garden? Fine. Attempt to kill all the badgers in an entire county because the NFU would rather do that than look after cattle properly and in the end it will make no difference to the cows anyway? Bollocks to that.

I would also be happy to see urban foxes slaughtered and removed from towns and cities. They don't belong and they are becoming tame and they're never healthy. I saw one today that ran up to me for food and was like a skeleton with patches of fur. I had to shout and wave to make it back off. But I would similarly object to their total destruction across entire counties. We wiped out brown bears, wolves and many other native species. Let's hang on to the few that we still have.
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Tony Williams
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Re: Badger cull

Post by Tony Williams » Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:19 pm

Croydon13013 wrote:
I don't have a problem with dealing with pests where they are being a nuisance.

But I do object to £millions being wasted on a stupid scheme that will achieve nothing. Kill the badgers in your back garden? Fine. Attempt to kill all the badgers in an entire county because the NFU would rather do that than look after cattle properly and in the end it will make no difference to the cows anyway? Bollocks to that.

I would also be happy to see urban foxes slaughtered and removed from towns and cities. They don't belong and they are becoming tame and they're never healthy. I saw one today that ran up to me for food and was like a skeleton with patches of fur. I had to shout and wave to make it back off. But I would similarly object to their total destruction across entire counties. We wiped out brown bears, wolves and many other native species. Let's hang on to the few that we still have.
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