"First use of a nerve agent on European soil since WW II."

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bindeweede
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"First use of a nerve agent on European soil since WW II."

Post by bindeweede » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:24 pm

Newish article from Bloomberg. Worth a read, but who knows.......

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -quicktake

ETA. Another interesting piece published yesterday.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/unli ... um=twitter

As usual, we plebs will only get to know what we are allowed to get to know.

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Re: "First use of a nerve agent on European soil since WW II."

Post by Tony.Williams » Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:09 am

Yes, I do hope that the evidence for Russian involvement is bombproof. Not like the evidence for Saddam Hussein's WMDs, for instance... :gh

Incidentally, The Irish Times looks interesting - a couple of thought-provoking opinion pieces on the Belfast Agreement.

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Re: "First use of a nerve agent on European soil since WW II."

Post by Tony.Williams » Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:40 am

Every topic has its lighter side.... I had to laugh at this one: https://uk.yahoo.com/news/zealand-says- ... 03238.html
New Zealand said Tuesday it would like to expel Russian spies in retaliation for allegedly poisoning an ex-agent in Britain -- only it can't find any Moscow operatives in the remote South Pacific nation.

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Re: "First use of a nerve agent on European soil since WW II."

Post by Tony.Williams » Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:40 pm

Just watched the Channel 4 programme on this fronted by Matt Frei. Sadly we are still suffering from a lack of important information, and this programme did nothing to help with two key questions:

1. If Novichok is such a super-duper devastatingly effective nerve agent, why are the Skripals still alive? Supposedly, exposure to even a faint trace of the stuff should kill in seconds.

2. How certain is the government that this could only have come from Russia? A casual browse of the net revealed reports such as the Iranians having synthesised the stuff and provided the breakdown to the UN inspectors. How many places have the knowledge and equipment to make it?

Don't get me wrong, I fully accept that it is highly probable that Putin was behind it, and that there is no plausible alternative explanation. But I would feel more comfortable if we had some clearer information.

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Re: "First use of a nerve agent on European soil since WW II."

Post by Croydon13013 » Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:29 am

Tony.Williams wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:40 pm
1. If Novichok is such a super-duper devastatingly effective nerve agent, why are the Skripals still alive? Supposedly, exposure to even a faint trace of the stuff should kill in seconds.

2. How certain is the government that this could only have come from Russia? A casual browse of the net revealed reports such as the Iranians having synthesised the stuff and provided the breakdown to the UN inspectors. How many places have the knowledge and equipment to make it?

Don't get me wrong, I fully accept that it is highly probable that Putin was behind it, and that there is no plausible alternative explanation. But I would feel more comfortable if we had some clearer information.
The only politician that I've seen adopting the proper, sceptical, approach is Jeremy Corbyn. And for this he has been vilified again. Just like us, he's not saying that Putin is innocent; only that we should have clear evidence before leaping into serious action. The behaviour of the UK govt has given Russia the opportunity to portray themselves as the victims, and fuels conspiracy theories that it was actually the UK/US that did it.
thIS sIGnaTure iS an

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Re: "First use of a nerve agent on European soil since WW II."

Post by Tony.Williams » Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:59 pm

Croydon13013 wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:29 am
The only politician that I've seen adopting the proper, sceptical, approach is Jeremy Corbyn. And for this he has been vilified again. Just like us, he's not saying that Putin is innocent; only that we should have clear evidence before leaping into serious action. The behaviour of the UK govt has given Russia the opportunity to portray themselves as the victims, and fuels conspiracy theories that it was actually the UK/US that did it.
The problem that Corbyn has seems to be with presentation. He started out by questioning the whole basis of the claim that Russia was to blame and only later fell into line with a formal acknowledgement that it was highly likely that they were. When nearly all the rest of the EU, the USA and other friendly nations have expressed their support for the British government line (with most of them acting on it), it stood out like a sore thumb that Corbyn did not.

In such circumstances, the approach of an opposition should be public support, and private questioning.

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Re: "First use of a nerve agent on European soil since WW II."

Post by chaggle » Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:03 am

Agree with both points - I think he was right in what he said but it was politically unwise to say it.
Don't blame me - I voted remain :con

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Re: "First use of a nerve agent on European soil since WW II."

Post by Tony.Williams » Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:51 pm

Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov has accused countries of "disregarding all accepted behaviour" and resorting to "open lies and disinformation".

That's a decidedly dirty pot accusing a relatively clean kettle :roll:

He also suggested the poisoning could be "in the interests of the British government" because of the "uncomfortable situation" they had found themselves in with Brexit. "There are other explanations. The experts are speaking about them. They say it may well be beneficial for the British special services who are known for their ability to act with a license to kill."

I wonder if he genuinely expects to convince anyone with such arguments? Sounds rather like desperation to me... :fp

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Re: "First use of a nerve agent on European soil since WW II."

Post by chaggle » Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:08 pm

Believe me Tony many people will be convinced by it.

I have family members who think I'm a sheeple for even listening to the BBC.

Apparently I should be immersing myself in RT and Press TV. Even Infowars and Natural News have been mentioned as reliable sources.

These people are 'awake'. :con
Don't blame me - I voted remain :con

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Re: "First use of a nerve agent on European soil since WW II."

Post by Tony.Williams » Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:21 pm

"There's none so blind as will not see"

The flip side is also true, of course - the blind will insist on seeing whatever it is they believe in.

It is curious, and rather depressing, that despite the wealth of information available to everyone these days, the popular mood seems to have been shifting away from evidence-based reasoning in favour of faith-based belief. Once somebody believes something, then it must be true, and anyone who doesn't agree is not only wrong but is evil and must be destroyed!!! :devil

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Re: "First use of a nerve agent on European soil since WW II."

Post by Tony.Williams » Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:22 am

I think we should start a campaign to revive the second verse of our national anthem:

O lord God arise,
Scatter our enemies,
And make them fall!
Confound their knavish tricks,
Confuse their politics,
On you our hopes we fix,
God save the Queen!

source: https://www.lyricsondemand.com/n/nation ... yrics.html

"Knavish tricks" sums up Russia's whole approach to the West. :agg

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